MURIEL WILKINS: I’m Muriel Wilkins, and this is Coaching Real Leaders part of the HBR Podcast Network. I’m a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who’ve hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them, so that hopefully they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show we have a one-time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they’re facing.
Today’s guest is someone we’ll call Maggie to protect her confidentiality. She’s been at her company for several years and seen it through many phases of growth.
MAGGIE: I’ve had the somewhat unique experience, I would say, of being with the same organization for the majority of my professional career, and when I started with the organization I’m with today, it was truly a startup. So it has been an honor to be part of that ride, and I have professionally benefited from that growth, probably elevating five to six times over the course of that company growth into new roles, learning new skill sets, et cetera.
MURIEL WILKINS: But lately Maggie has been feeling a shift and less of a tailwind than she’s felt in the past when it comes to advancing in her career.
MAGGIE: We’re on the precipice of a new era of the company where it has to function differently. We have to build to scale. We’ve got new leadership coming in and I find myself asking the question, am I who this organization needs long term? Is there a place for me in this organization long term? And I really want to come to that decision on my own before I’m forced to. It’s just been a lot of self-reflection and trying to understand if this is the place for me long term and if I can provide value.
MURIEL WILKINS: As Maggie senses the shift happening all around her, she’s been doing a lot of self-reflection and reached out for coaching because she hopes to explore whether it will continue to be the right place for her and if she might still add value as the organization scales. To help her think about how she wants to move forward, I begin by asking about what got her here and how she thinks she’s added value so far.
MAGGIE: I’m really good at taking on new challenges and new growth, and so every moment of newness that the company faced, I always was able to figure out the pieces and parts to make that work, who to work with, how to build the scalable function and how to grow in that area. And so I see myself continuing to bring that, but I think that I’ve gotten to the point where obviously with the scale and size the company is getting to, there needs be a more refined leadership scope and I just don’t know if I am who that organization needs at that phase.
MURIEL WILKINS: Have you ever felt that before that you just didn’t know if you are what the organization needs? Because you’ve been there a while and you’ve gotten elevated a few times.
MAGGIE: This is the first time I’ve really felt it, and I don’t know if it’s because there’s a new wave of leadership or if it’s just the size that we’ve reached, we just function differently than we used to, but this is definitely the first time I’ve experienced it personally.
MURIEL WILKINS: And what is it exactly that you’re experiencing that’s different?
MAGGIE: I’m feeling a change in expectations. So as we were growing in the company, it’s almost like the way to grow was to take on more responsibility and more scope, and we’ve reached a size where it’s almost like there’s more value on specialization and being really focused on a particular area, which is different than what I’ve ever experienced before. So it’s because I’ve been there for so long, my hands are in a lot of things and I have a lot of experience there, but I don’t know what my direct path is.
I’m also experiencing because it’s a whole new regime, a lot of changing tides in conversations that I’m not in. And so I’m having trouble finding my footing of what is my path forward and where do I need to lean in to really be successful long term, and is that what I want to do? Do I want to be with this organization in the next phase?
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. And in the past, how did you know what your path forward was?
MAGGIE: Truly it was we have this opportunity and we don’t have anyone to do it. And so I would just raise my hand for anything that was thrown at me.
MURIEL WILKINS: So you were like, “I’m here.”
MAGGIE: Yep, “I’ll do it.”
MURIEL WILKINS: “I’ll do it.” Okay. And what’s happening now?
MAGGIE: There’s less of that and there’s a lot of talent in the organization at the top. And so there’s less of these just things that are out there that need someone to take hold of and more of a, you need to really prove your value and serve the company in a really defined way where there’s guardrails.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. So I’m trying to understand whether you have gotten any indication from others around what your path might be or whether there is a path.
MAGGIE: In the new leadership, I have been given a path forward. It has changed probably three or four times, and it’s always felt like almost a surprise as it’s changing. I think there is a little bit of me looking inwardly of can I do the job that I’m being asked of because I don’t have outside perspective. I’ve been with the same company and now we’re functioning at a different level, and so can I service in that role that I’m being asked to do? And it’s a little scary. It’s almost like this is handed to me versus, “Hey, we need to solve for this problem and me volunteering for that.” So it’s been a different approach, I guess you would say.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. And what’s the difference, not in the approach, but what is the difference in terms of the way that you’re responding to the opportunities based on the difference in approach?
MAGGIE: Yeah. It’s a good question. I’m probably responding in the same way. If I see a problem in front of me, I really dig in and probably overwork to build out, “Hey, I can do this job,” and almost prove myself to the person. Maybe it’s that I’m getting less feedback that it’s what they need and so I’m not sure, am I hitting the mark? Am I not? And not getting that feedback from new leadership that I don’t know well, and that doesn’t know me well.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. And so what would that feedback give you?
MAGGIE: It would give me guidance that I am on the right path and probably give me more confidence that there is a seat for me in the long-term with the organization. There’s confidence that I can do the thing they’re asking of versus she’s been here for a long time, it would be noticed if she wasn’t here. Let’s just put her here for now, if that makes sense.
MURIEL WILKINS: Got it. So what I’m sensing is there’s a lot of, I don’t knows.
MAGGIE: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: Right?
MAGGIE: That’s a good way to put it.
MURIEL WILKINS: And because you’re not getting that information from others, it’s then making you question whether there’s a path for you or not. And correct me if I’m off here, but it feels like because you’re not hearing there’s a direct path for you. There’s an insinuation that there might not be a direct path for you, which there could be other possibilities as to why you’re not hearing, “Here’s the direct path.” What other possibilities could that be?
MAGGIE: I mean, the other possibilities are they don’t know what it is yet. I sometimes equate the phase that we’re in right now of someone going to the doctor where the doctor is running all of these texts and asking all these questions to get to a diagnosis. We have a new regime of leadership that’s coming in and trying to understand the business, how it got here, what’s working, what’s not working, as well as bringing in their perspective of what has worked in other industry. And so there’s a lot of that happening, which means the remit is changing constantly as more information is gathered.
MURIEL WILKINS: And so there’s a little bit of… In what you just said, there’s a lot of change in people discovering right now because they are new to the company, which is really not personal, I guess, right?
MAGGIE: Yeah. I think you’re right.
MURIEL WILKINS: I don’t think they’re coming in and saying, “Oh my gosh, we don’t know anything about Maggie.” I think they’re coming in and saying, “We don’t know anything about this company. How do we get it on the right trajectory? We’re figuring it out in this discovery phase as they should.” And as a result of that, they may not be able to provide this clear guidance that you are craving for. And maybe the more they don’t give it, the more you want it. The more you want-
MAGGIE: That would be it.
MURIEL WILKINS: … them solidifying. So I think there’s two parts here. I think there’s the how do you manage this precipice chapter that you’re in because you’re not quite in the new era, right? You’re on the precipice, so how do you stand on the precipice? There’s that piece. And then there’s the, “What does the future look like for me?” And how do I… Back to your original question, “Do I have a place in whatever this next new era is? And do I even want a place in that new era?”
MAGGIE: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: There’s two pieces and I think we were jumbling up both, but in order to be able to see the new era clearly or figure out how to deal with new era, clearly you’ve got to be able to stand on the precipice with strong footing.
MAGGIE: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS:
Okay?
MAGGIE: Yeah. I think you’re right.
MURIEL WILKINS: So let’s start with that and I’m going to ask you, what do you need to be able to be in this little season that you’re in? We’re calling it the precipice season. I’m imagining you actually standing on the precipice of something, so what do you need to feel like you have some strong footing there that’s in your control, by the way?
MAGGIE: Oh, see, that’s the tough part. I need constant accolades. What do I need? I think an understanding or an education of how companies at that size, our goal size function. Again, being with the same organization and seeing it grow, I only can look back and see how each stage of this company had functioned over the past decade. I don’t think I fully understand how a company at this scale and at our next scale works day to day and how all the pieces and parts come together. So I think that would be really helpful.
I think also understanding the vision of all the new leaders that are coming into the org. I think I’ve met all of them individually. I’ve had great conversations with all of them, but I don’t think they’ve even aligned on all of their individual visions for that kind of next step in growth. Knowing some of that would be helpful for me. And then also I think I need to figure out, to your point, things I can control. I need to figure out a way for me to reflect and measure if I’m being successful without hearing it directly from somebody.
MURIEL WILKINS: And that is in your control and that is this last piece that you said around how do I measure if I’m being successful without necessarily hearing it from someone? Again, I keep coming back to this image of standing on a precipice. It’s like knowing, “Yep, my two feet are still on the ground. That’s success.” Rather than waiting for the wind to shift me one way or the other or somebody else to tell me, “Oh, no, your two feet are on the ground.”
MAGGIE: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: Right?
MAGGIE: yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: So let’s start with that one because I think that that’s the one that you have the most control over. What would you need to do or look into to give you those measures of success that your two feet are still on the ground?
MAGGIE: I think maybe it’s just going through the exercise of, okay, what do I understand today of where the company wants to go? What do I understand today of the remit that’s kind of been drafted for me? What does success mean for that role? And then writing out what those metrics are to then determine, okay, how do I measure that? Is it in our systems? Is it through conversation? Maybe having some sort of roadmap that I can refer to on a daily basis and use as my north star could be helpful. I don’t know what else.
MURIEL WILKINS: I think that would be a great start because I think part of what’s happening is you’re sort of thinking about out there. You’re sort of like, “Oh my God. What’s happening? It’s in the future. I don’t know.” And what I’m asking you to do is look at your two feet. Are they still on the ground? Every few minutes, check down. Are the two feet still on the ground? Which translates into what you just said, is what I’m doing on a day-to-day basis or on a weekly basis, is it still adding value? Is there some success there?
And even if you don’t know if it’s what’s going to be valuable two months from now, a year from now, being able to determine, “Well, for today, this is success. How do I measure success today? What would make today a success? What would make this week successful? And let me track it.”
MAGGIE: Yeah, I’ve never thought about that starting the week to say, “Okay, it’s Monday. When I get to Friday, what are the things that I want to achieve by Friday that this week would be deemed successful?” And maybe thinking more shorter term. Then to your point, I feel like I’ve always tried to be the tip of the spear of the company and so I’ve always been like, “Okay. What is big picture we’re trying to achieve?” I think I need to rein that in a little bit. To your point, in the moment of change, since we don’t know all of those things.
MURIEL WILKINS: Exactly. I mean, look, I think it’s great that you’re strategic and you’re future-oriented and you think big picture. But when that’s nebulous, and it’s really not in your decision rights to figure out what that future is going to look like, that’s the new leadership. You can’t measure. And you’re asking for the impossible, which is, “I want to measure my success, but the things that I want to measure my success on are these nebulous things that don’t exist. And oh, by the way, I don’t really have any direction or say so in what that’s going to look like.”
So the question becomes then what do you do in the meantime until you get that clarity? And in the meantime, I mean, you’re there, you’re coming into work, you’re doing something, you get to lay out what you do in the short term. Focus on that just to make you feel like at least in the short term, in the precipice piece, you’re grounded. Okay?
MAGGIE: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: So does that work? You think you’ll be able to do that?
MAGGIE: Yeah, I do. And I think I’ve used frameworks in the past for other initiatives where it’s like 30 days, 60, something like that, that’s even more shorter term I think would really help me in the day-to-day.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. Just to bring you back to the basics.
Maggie is standing in the middle of a lot of change. Her company is evolving, roles are shifting, and she’s trying to make sense of where she fits. In moments like this, it’s common to feel the urge to move quickly to make a decision, just to regain control. But sometimes the most helpful thing isn’t to act right away. It’s to pause long enough to take stock of what’s really happening. This part of the conversation is about clarity. What’s actually changed around her? What’s still true about how she adds value? Without that grounding, it’s easy to react to the noise instead of the facts. As Maggie reflects on what’s right in front of her, the picture starts to come into focus. Not all at once, but piece by piece. Let’s jump back in as she begins sorting through what’s really shifting and what might just need a new perspective.
Let me ask you this, if new leadership were to come to you and say, “Maggie, you tell us what you want. Your wish is our command,” what would you say?
MAGGIE: Yeah, it’s a good question. Honestly, to their credit, there has been some of that. I keep going back to wanting to be somebody that’s thinking about the future state of the organization where it’s going. I really like to be client facing and to be large stage out there with the market. I also like to think about the vision of where the company is going. So I think there would be elements of all of those things. And I also very much pride myself on the ability to collaborate and connect across the organization. So understanding how the pieces and parts come together from a growth perspective and a positioning perspective.
So it would probably be elements of that. This goes back to what I talked about before if I don’t really know what the structure and org roles look like in larger organizations. So I think my scale and scope is probably way too large for a single role, but I haven’t gone through the exercise of chiseling that down to something more specific and measurable.
MURIEL WILKINS: By specific and measurable, what do you mean? What would that look like?
MAGGIE: I don’t know. I think it would look like something that would not have crossover across other areas of the organization like marketing or the divisions, or product or all of these different organizations. I think I’m just so used to being involved in everything that I need to probably challenge myself to think through what are the three things that I most enjoy doing and that I can provide the most value? And what does that role look like? And is that a role that this organization needs long term? And maybe that would give me some answers or direction.
MURIEL WILKINS: I mean, it’s interesting to me because I think what you just said now around you’re used to being involved in everything which is required when you’re in a startup. It’s like you want people who can roll up their sleeves and who can make the coffee and freaking put together the strategic plan all in one day.
MAGGIE: Exactly.
MURIEL WILKINS: Like they can do it all. And now I think what you’re seeing is that as a company scale, you don’t really need people who can do it all. I think it’s what you refer to as more specialization. And my question to you is if up until now you’ve defined your value as doing it all, what could be the new way that you could define your value that isn’t, “I do it all”?
MAGGIE:
I think that’s what I’ve been grappling with. I don’t know., maybe it comes back to being the person that people come to for a specific thing like the expert in an area. I don’t know.
MURIEL WILKINS: What is it that you don’t know?
MAGGIE: I don’t know how to grow in an organization and provide value if it doesn’t mean taking on more things.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. But do you hear how inherent in that is that you’re defining success and value as taking on more things?
MAGGIE: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: Which is great for certain types of organizations for a startup. So you could certainly do that, right? And other types of organizations. But you’re attached to, “This is how I add value by taking on more things.” Right?
So like saying, “I can only play tennis with my forehand. That’s how I win.” And you certainly, you use your forehand, and there might be other ways of also winning. And so the question is, are you willing, A, to look at other ways that you can also win the game or add value? That’s number one. And number two, do you think you can win or add value in other ways? Meaning do you have the capability to, the skill to. And then number three is are there opportunities to do so?
Whereas I think where you went straight to is what’s the opportunity? And I think we’re missing those first two, which is do you even want to move beyond this definition of value that has made you successful at this company for all this time, which is I can do all the things.
MAGGIE: Yeah. I think I do. I think it is the right next move for me in my career is to really focus in on my strengths and growth in a particular area. I also think it makes me more marketable just generally in the market to have an area of specialty. And I think it’s what this organization needs. I don’t think I’m the right person to do all of the things in my current state. Like very particular things that I could potentially plug into and strengthen. And maybe that’s where I need to focus is identifying what are those things, those specific things that there is white space currently that I have an expertise in, that I could continue to grow in and focus my energy on that?
And then maybe from there it opens up opportunity of providing more specificity to an actual role. So maybe it’s me taking advantage of this precipice era that I’m in by exploring some of those things. I wonder if that’s the way to go.
MURIEL WILKINS: If you were to go that way, do you have… And you don’t need to name them, but do you already see some of those white spaces?
MAGGIE: Yeah, I do. There are definitely things where I find myself being one of the few to be able to support an area that I have probably the most experience in that I could probably lean in more heavily. And one way that I would need to be successful in that is prioritization and letting other things go. That’s probably the step that’s going to be hardest for me, but it’s necessary for this to be successful. There are definitely a couple of things within the org that I could focus on and prioritize.
MURIEL WILKINS: And then the question becomes, what might that lead to in terms of what’s next?
MAGGIE: It would probably lead to further definition of what my role could be and also maybe clarity of my question from the beginning. Is there a seat for me or a need for me long-term in this organization? If I can identify what that white space is, prove my value in that white space and those specific areas, really further define what that role is, both by showing early success, but also having a plan of long-term success. And then I would probably be more equipped to have a conversation with leadership of like, “This is where I could provide the most value. Is this what the company needs?” And that would at least give me direction and allow me to take control of it and control of that narrative as much as I can.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. I’m also intrigued by your asking, “Is this what the company needs?” One of the things that you bring to the table is you’ve been at this company for a while. You know the company. And what I’m not hearing from you is what do you think the company needs based on what you know?
MAGGIE: Yeah. I wonder if it’s a lack of confidence on my part because I don’t know this new leadership that’s coming in. And so I think I’ve maybe taken the path of, let me make sure they see my value and work extra hard so they see my value so that they keep me or uncover areas of opportunity. But I do like what you’re saying of there’s probably more that I could voice and bring to the table based on my experience the last number of years.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. I think there’s an and, right? I think there’s the, “I’m bringing value and people recognize it,” but you also are in a situation where you’re not acting from a deficit. Like I said, I think there’s a huge asset in terms of what you’ve seen the company go through, you know it, you know the DNA of it, and you just said this new leadership is in discovery mode.
So could you not make their discovery easier by also saying, “Hey, let me share with you what my assessment is, what I think will be necessary, what I think would be helpful is you make these decisions, et cetera, not be overly attached to them,” but also be able to say, “Here’s what I think is going to be needed.” So it’s a parallel path between the two versus waiting for them to tell you.
MAGGIE: Yeah. I really like that, and I like that… That goes back to my original goal of wanting to be in control of my destiny as much as possible and understand where I see myself or if there’s opportunity as early as I can. I think that would provide some of that clarity to have those conversations.
MURIEL WILKINS: You brought up the word, confidence. What is it that you’re not confident? You said you question whether maybe you don’t have confidence in certain things. What is it that you’re questioning where you might have confidence?
MAGGIE: Yeah. I think it’s my lack of experience with organizations of this size and the full portfolio that we offer. I don’t know all of the infrastructure that it takes to be successful because I’ve only been with this organization and have, as you know with startups, built with tape and glue, and you just fill in the gaps where you need to, where there’s so much more complexity to organizations of a larger size that I just am not exposed to. So there’s even language that new leadership is bringing in that I haven’t heard and I know the meaning, but it’s new education for me. So I think maybe it’s some of that.
MURIEL WILKINS: I want to commend you on acknowledging that there are things you don’t know. And so if there are things you don’t know, I think it goes back to your other goal where you could be using the time now, which is, “What is it that I don’t know? And where am I still a learner? And where is it okay for me to be learning? And how can I learn now about those things? “And I also want you to outline what it is that you do know.
MAGGIE: It’s interesting you say that. I’d never thought about writing that down. And I think that that would allow me to really think about those things. I think there’s more that I know that I’m not sharing because I don’t… In the moment, I’m not thinking about it, but it’s something that they wouldn’t be exposed to yet that could be valuable in that moment. And to go through the exercise of writing all that down feels like a really obvious thing I haven’t done.
MURIEL WILKINS: I don’t know if it’s obvious, right? It doesn’t matter. You haven’t done it and maybe it would be helpful to you now, but I think this notion of I don’t have… Or I lack some confidence because I don’t know all these things, or there’s some things that I’m not familiar with. So two things there. One is there are some things that you do know, so let’s chop half of the confidences there because you do know some things. But the other is just because certain things doesn’t mean that you can’t be confident. The confidence doesn’t come from you whether you know something or don’t know it. The confidence comes from whether you believe you have the ability to learn those things.
MAGGIE: And that’s one area that I’ve always felt strong and I feel like I find energy in spaces where I don’t know how to do the things. And then figuring them out is the joy that I find in working, especially at this organization. So I like that exercise of thinking about it. And even just that kind of mantra. I almost want to write down what you just said and put it on the wall of confidences from the ability to learn, not knowing everything in the conversation.
MURIEL WILKINS: Right. Because as you have experienced through your years of working there and having been elevated multiple times, I’m sure each time you were elevated, you didn’t come in and be like, “Oh my God, I know everything.” But you had the confidence say, “I can figure it out.” And I think that there’s a part of this around you can figure it out. There are certain things around what does it mean to operate at this scale that you can figure out? The question is then going to become, can you figure it out at the pace and at the level at which the organization and/or leadership will need? That’s the unknown factor. It is also the factor that you do not have control over right now, primarily because it doesn’t sound like they know.
MAGGIE: Yeah, that’s very true.
MURIEL WILKINS: Right?
MAGGIE: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: So I wish I could sit here and say, “Oh my gosh, yes, this is exactly what you need to do to be able to step into this next path or next chapter. But that next path is unknown right now. So we don’t know what it will be until they make a decision. But can you help inform? Can you demonstrate the value that you do bring? Can you amp up the value in areas that you haven’t yet? In the meantime, absolutely.
MAGGIE: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: As Maggie started thinking about whether she had a future in her organization, her mind went straight to the question of opportunity, what might be next? But before looking ahead, it’s often helpful to pause and get clear on how you define your value right now. In a perfect world, that process would be neat. You’d line up what you do well, what you want to grow in and what your company needs. But that’s not Maggie’s reality at the moment. The organization is in flux and she doesn’t have a clear sense of what it will value next.
In moments like that, the best place to start is with what’s steady, your own skills, your patterns of impact, the things that have consistently grounded your leadership. Maggie is open to exploring that, which is key. But defining value doesn’t happen in isolation. Every leader operates within a web of relationships, mentors, peers, team members who can reflect back what they see. So next we turn toward that. Who’s in her ecosystem and how she might use those perspectives to see herself more clearly. Let’s dive back into the conversation.
MAGGIE: I have a couple of peers that have been my colleagues for a number of years that are my support system, that I’m at a deeper level with them where I can have some more of these conversations. And I have a couple of colleagues, my network that I’ve kept up in touch with for the past couple of years that I’ve been talking to. But I appreciate you saying that because I do sometimes feel like I don’t have many people I can talk to because of, I don’t want anything I say to be used against me, to be leveraged against me. And there are some situations where that might happen.
So I think I do sometimes feel like I’m in a vacuum. I’m also stepping tentatively into a role where the team isn’t built yet. There’s a lot of gray area that I’m trying to navigate and wade through and I want to come off like I have everything together and not show any type of weakness with all of the people I engage with day to day. So it is a really good question. I haven’t prioritized growing my network and my support system and I wonder if there are things I can do to do that in the short term.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. I mean, part of it is having that support system with, again, I’m assuming you’re not the only person who’s still here from the past years of the organization, but I’m also wondering what are you doing to build your relationship with these newcomers?
MAGGIE: Yeah. I have done a couple of things, one is, I have had a lot of discovery meetings with them, building bridges, sharing as much knowledge as I can, and gaps and opportunities. I’ve also been incredibly transparent with leaders in terms of where we are as an organization, where there’s opportunity, et cetera. So I’m trying to be open to them as much as possible and part of the conversation, but I don’t know if I’ve done anything strategic or super organized in terms of bridging the gap for them.
MURIEL WILKINS: What would that look like if it was strategic and super organized?
MAGGIE: I don’t know. That’s a great question. I almost wish I could put together a business plan of how I envision the particular org within the org that I’m in, but with things changing so much and being unclear on what that role is, I don’t know if I have enough of the information to do that. So I guess, I don’t know. I don’t know the answer to that question. It’s good one.
MURIEL WILKINS: So if you were to put that together today, you don’t think you’d be able to based on what you do know?
MAGGIE: I probably could put something together today maybe. Yeah, I don’t know.
MURIEL WILKINS: What would be your concern if you did that? And I’m not suggesting that’s what you do.
MAGGIE: No, I hear you.
MURIEL WILKINS: Just playing around with it. But what would be your concern if you put that today and then you went out and socialize it with some of these folks? What’s your concern?
MAGGIE: I guess my concern is that it wouldn’t be well received. Maybe it wouldn’t be aligned with what they were looking to do. Maybe it would expose me and my lack of experience in that type of thing.
MURIEL WILKINS: And then what would happen?
MAGGIE: Loss of confidence that I could do the job.
MURIEL WILKINS: I mean, I feel like it would put you right back to where you were at the beginning of this conversation, right? So I’m asking because I think what I’m hearing you say is that you’re stopping yourself from leaning in more out of fear that it’s not going to be accepted. If it’s not accepted, something bad is going to happen, and the bad thing is you’ll lose your confidence or you won’t get the job, or things will be unclear, or maybe you won’t… I don’t know. You didn’t state it, but maybe they will not find a role for you there, right?
MAGGIE: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: And I guess my question to you is does that possibility exist whether you lean in or you don’t lean in?
MAGGIE: Probably. And maybe there is a world where they’re looking for that. They’re looking for somebody to step up and approach this more at a senior leader level than what maybe I’ve been approaching in the past. So there could actually be value in that. And to your point, if I do it or I don’t, I’m in the same place.
MURIEL WILKINS: You’re in the same place. And again, I’m not advocating for one way or the other. What I’m advocating for is to see that you have choice and you have different paths you can walk down rather than the one that you’ve been on right now which feels different than what you’ve done for your whole career, which is let me be in protective mode. Let me lay low, and hopefully they won’t see where I may be lacking. Maybe. Okay? I think the fact of the matter is whether there’s a place for you at the organization or not, it is what it is. That happens all the time. I’m not going to sit here and be like, “Of course there’s going to be a place for you in your organization.” We keep coming back to the same thing, we don’t know. And you will not know until they sort of have outlined what the future of the organization looks like.
But in the meantime, you can start walking off the precipice in a multitude of ways. One is to lay low. The other is to say, “Okay, I’m going to lean in and I’m going to… on the things that I do know and where I do think I can add structure, and where I do think I can be value additive in helping them figure out what the future looks like.”
MAGGIE: And I think if I can do what you had shared earlier, which is to identify what are those two to three things, what are those areas that I really want to lean in on and focus on that as I’m building out a recommendation, I think that that could help define a potential role, could help define what I’m recommending in terms of the division and the growth and might potentially lead to some really good conversation versus just waiting for the new tide to shift or the new wind.
MURIEL WILKINS: And let’s say you did that and fast forward a year from now. Let’s say there is not a new role. I know I’m supposed to be like glass half full, but I’m going to play glass half empty here.
MAGGIE: I’m here for it.
MURIEL WILKINS: Let’s say there is not a new role, then what? what would you do?
MAGGIE: I guess, look for a new role. I don’t know. I’d probably start the process of figuring out, “Okay, what are some pivots I can do with my career? Or what are some roles I should be looking for?” Maybe take by learnings from these exercises you’ve shared here and say, “Okay. I get a sense of where my strengths are,” and start getting a feel for what the market is looking like. And then also concurrently building out my network, strengthening my network.
MURIEL WILKINS: How does that feel to you even thinking about it?
MAGGIE: A little overwhelming, truthfully. I mean for anybody, I’m sure.
MURIEL WILKINS: What makes it overwhelming for you?
MAGGIE: I haven’t gone through that process in a long time, and so it would be uncharted territory in a way. There’s also, and I think I’m assuming others experience this with startups where you get emotionally attached to them because you’ve seen such growth, and I’ve been honored to be part of that, that it would be bittersweet to not be part of the next level. So I think it’d be all those feelings.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah, of course. I could sense that as you were talking about, “Oh, I’d have to look for a new job.” And I could resonate. I could feel that you were like, “I haven’t done that in so long. What does that even look like? Do I want to?” And as you just shared, the emotional attachment to the organization and wanting to continue on with it’s making me. My kids are about to go off to college and I’m about to become what they call an empty nester. I refuse to adopt that term.
MAGGIE: Sure.
MURIEL WILKINS: And part of it is, it’s bittersweet, right? You’re attached and you want to let it go because what are the possibilities? And I bring you back to the beginning of our conversation, which is when you said, “I want to make sure also and respect and honor that I’m in an organization where what I bring to the table is what’s needed.” And so in a way, it’s like in what way do you honor yourself in whatever next chapter that is?
MAGGIE: Yeah. That’s such a nice way to put it. That’s another thing I want to print out on my wall. No, I think that’s a really wise way to put it because it’s like I need to think about myself where I get energy, where I want to see growth as well and that could be another ways. And that shouldn’t be as scary or I shouldn’t give that as much power.
MURIEL WILKINS: I mean, it can be scary. It can be scary, and it doesn’t mean that because it’s scary, you can’t do something different. Your journey so far with this organization has definitely had its purpose. The question is, “Does it still serve the purpose that you want to serve?” So there’s two levels here. There’s this sort of like, “Does it still fit?” And the other level is, “Oh my God, I don’t want to go through the tactical stuff of finding a new job,” which I get because that’s uncomfortable and you haven’t done it in a long time, and it doesn’t mean that you can’t do it if it came to that. So what I want to make sure is that you’re not operating today out of fear of what might happen a year from now or the discomfort you might feel a year from now.
MAGGIE: Yeah. That’s a really, really smart way to put it. It would limit. It’s like, how do I lean in fully into the way I’m thinking about things with confidence and understand that that could mean a number of different paths depending on how it’s received and being okay with that. I think you’re right. It’s really important.
MURIEL WILKINS: That’s right. Because on the other side even if it’s uncomfortable, even if it’s a pain to have to go through the emotional, dis-attachment and the job search, I think what you’re saying is, “Yeah, I wouldn’t like it, but I could do it. Okay. Well, I’ll be fine. So what does that mean for me today rather than reacting based on what I don’t want in the future. Which by the way, we are totally making up because we don’t know.
MAGGIE: We don’t know.
MURIEL WILKINS: We don’t know what these people want. Right?
MAGGIE: Right.
MURIEL WILKINS: So I think a big piece of this, Maggie, is to focus. I can’t believe I’m saying this because so often with my clients I’m like, “Big picture. Let’s think about the future, blah, blah, blah.” In your case, I actually think your power is in thinking about the short term and bringing it back to what can you do now, and waiting till there’s more clarity about the future, both from the organization and leadership, but also for yourself as you try these new things before making any decisions about them.
MAGGIE: Yeah. I think you’re right. I think also too, I haven’t done this, but really documenting what I’m experiencing, the type of feedback that I’m getting, the shifts that I’m noticing, and starting to write those out so I can start to get a sense of how things are continuing to change as I’m looking inwardly and honing in on my focus and thinking about those strengths, I think could be helpful.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah, I think that coupled with getting to know some of these folks more and voicing more leveraging the knowledge that you do have and experience that you do have rather than focusing on what you don’t and seeing what you can bring to the table from that perspective.
MAGGIE: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: Will again help you sort of stay grounded in what you do have rather than what you don’t have.
MAGGIE: Yeah, I like that a lot.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. So tell me what you came in looking for and tell me what you’re leaving with instead, or maybe you are leaving with what you came in looking for.
MAGGIE: Yeah. I appreciate it. I think I came in looking for clarity, how to navigate what to me feels like a constantly changing organization with a lot of new ideas and perspectives. What I’ve gained from this conversation is a framework to start thinking about my next step and my path forward and thinking about and honestly, an acceptance of this precipice era. And I like that you put a name to it because I’ve been avoiding it and just constantly trying to say, “This is how it’s going to be. Oh, we shifted this today. This is how it’s going to be.”
And I think I need to just accept we are in an era of change and I need to be okay with that. And how can I use that to my advantage? So I’m living with that as well as you’ve given me a lot of really smart ways to think about how can I start goal setting for the short term? How can I start showing my successes even on a weekly basis and really starting to self-reflect on what are the areas that I, A, think I can bring the most value to the organization, but also where I’m energized and want to work in. And do they align? And I think even just that exercise will give me some clarity.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah, I love it. So much can be done in the precipice era. We think we’d need to just freeze and get over it real quick. Are we jumping or not? What are we doing?
MAGGIE: Nope.
MURIEL WILKINS: I know. You just stay and there’s so much to be done in this staying.
MAGGIE: So much. And you would think I would be used to it from this startup, but it just felt so differently this time and it’s been helpful to name it, so I appreciate that.
MURIEL WILKINS: With many leaders, the work is about zooming out, seeing the big picture, setting direction. But in Maggie’s case, what’s most useful right now is the opposite. Narrowing the focus to what’s right in front of her, the day to day, the small steps that help her feel steady while the larger picture keeps shifting. When things are uncertain, grounding yourself in what you can do and what you do have builds confidence. It’s how leaders adapt no matter how the story unfolds. And sometimes facing the scenario you fear most, naming it, really looking at it takes the power out of it. You start to realize even if the outcome isn’t what you hoped for, you can handle it. That’s the real work of a precipice moment. It’s not about predicting what’s next. It’s about trusting that whatever comes, you have enough agency and enough clarity to meet it.
That’s the path of your precipice era. And part of what makes that hard for many leaders and for Maggie is a familiar belief, the feeling that I need to be involved. It’s that sense that our value depends on being in everything everywhere all the time. I write about that belief in my book, Leadership Unblocked: Break Through the Beliefs That Limit Your Potential. What Maggie’s story reminds us is that growth often comes from loosening that grip, focusing on what’s truly ours to lead and trusting what we’ve built to stand on its own. If this conversation resonated with you, Leadership Unblocked is available now wherever you get your book. Just like on this show, it’s about getting clear on what’s in your way so you can lead with more impact and more ease.
That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time…
THOMAS: Dealing with the people that are directly below me, that have been here longer than me has been the biggest challenge. Making sure that I don’t bring down morale, but at the same time that I do have that heavy hand because there’s just been a lot of pushback. So just maintaining a good balance while also maintaining a strong presence.
MURIEL WILKINS: If you love the conversations we have here on Coaching Real Leaders, you’ll definitely want to check out my new book, Leadership Unblocked: Break Through the Beliefs That Limit Your Potential. You can order it now wherever you get your books. And if today’s episode resonated with you, I’d be so grateful if you’d subscribe to the show, share it with a friend, or leave a five-star review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
It’s one of the best ways to help others find the show. I’d also love to stay connected. You can always find me at murielwilkins.com, on LinkedIn at Muriel Wilkins, and on Instagram @coachmurielwilkins. A big thank you to my producer Mary Dooe, sound editor Nick Crnko, music composer Brian Campbell, my chief of staff Emily Sophaa, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. From the HBR Podcast Network, I’m Muriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.
